Curse

Earth · Jan 05, 2008, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

let us get back to actually improving on this thread?

He's doing exactly that. Jagged Bones is very useful for a MM. What other elite are you going to take when you realize that Flesh Golem is not the best skill for a MM? AotL isn't exactly useful in PvE. You could take OoU, but that would require a pretty specific build.

Minions are meatshields. Meatshields die, no matter what you do. In those cases, Jagged Bones comes in handy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Actually, I am not answering you, because I know you are wrong, and because I have already answered every point you've made.

No.

Moloch Vein · Jan 05, 2008, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Earth X

He's doing exactly that. Jagged Bones is very useful for a MM. What other elite are you going to take when you realize that Flesh Golem is not the best skill for a MM? AotL isn't exactly useful in PvE. You could take OoU, but that would require a pretty specific build.

Minions are meatshields. Meatshields die, no matter what you do. In those cases, Jagged Bones comes in handy.

Aura of the Lich is incredibly useful for a Minion Master in PvE. Running Aura of the Lich will make your army so much easier to sustain than running Jagged Bones that it isn't even funny.

Order of Undeath does "require a pretty specific build", oh, true. It requires a build that's capable of sustaining the damage from the skill. That's not different from the build of any Minion Master maintaining his army with Blood of the Master, it's simply a quantitative difference.

A Minion Bomber isn't the same thing as a Minion Master. Among other things, Minion Bombers rarely carry Blood of the Master, and if they do, it's simply for transports between battle. They don't focus on maintaining a wall. A Minion Master does just that, and maintaining said wall with minions of a higher level is eminently easier.

To repeat myself (for, what, the fifth time?): Given the nature of Hard Mode, a Minion Bomber is often preferred to a Minion Master. Depending on the area, Jagged Bones may or may not find a slot on its bar.

If the minions, as people have said, "die very, very quickly" (in other words, they're one-shotted so you don't even get a chance to heal them), then you shouldn't try to run with a minion wall in that area to begin with.

RhanoctJocosa · Jan 05, 2008, 05:46 PM // 17:46

I argued that Jagged Bones is a Minion Master skill because it's bound to minions and is used only by Minion Masters. Choosing to destroy your minions for whatever reason does not change you from a Minion Master to a Minion Bomber, because there is no such term. You did not continue to discuss this point to any useful degree.

Jagged Bones, when used effectively, creates a rapid flow of minions, bleeding, a barrier between the monsters and your party, and a massive blast of aoe damage and poison. Flesh Golem is a slightly stronger minion that many see as a "tank", despite it only having a little extra armour and hp than the regular minions, which usually warrants bringing it on a minion master. I said this skill was terrible, with Jagged Bones in mind as the better skill. While I agree fully with Ensign, that because the MM template can function well without an elite Flesh Golem is a decent skill to assign, I believe Jagged Bones is far superior. You attempted to explain why you felt that Flesh Golem was the better choice, but really didn't explain anything.

I find it funny that you'd call me ignorant since I'm really the one explaining everything here, with you just posting pathetic assaults that are mildy on topic. I understand that your intentions are good in making this thread, but if you can't bring yourself to understand other lines of thought you really shouldn't be making it.

Moloch Vein · Jan 05, 2008, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

I argued that Jagged Bones is a Minion Master skill because it's bound to minions and is used only by Minion Masters. Choosing to destroy your minions for whatever reason does not change you from a Minion Master to a Minion Bomber, because there is no such term.

Yes, it does, and yes, there is.

Quote:

While I agree fully with Ensign, that because the MM template can function well without an elite Flesh Golem is a decent skill to assign, I believe Jagged Bones is far superior. You attempted to explain why you felt that Flesh Golem was the better choice, but really didn't explain anything.

Then let me explain it to you again, and then, I'm really not going to persist if you remain unable to pick up on it.

Animate Flesh Golem is a no-brains skill. You animate a Golem. When it dies, you make another one if and when the skill is recharged. (Actually, comparing the recharge of Golem and Jagged, as you did, is insane - you can only have one Golem, and if it dies within 30 seconds, something is very wrong indeed, about either you or the area.) It's a skill eminently suitable for a newbie Minion Master. It isn't the best skill for a MM to bring in most cases. It's simply a comfortable skill. Other skills (AoTL, OoU) require more thinking and more experience to be fully effective, and AoTL can be suicidal in some areas - which is why I'm reluctant to include it as the main option.

If you bring Jagged Bones, you should bring Death Nova. If you bring Death Nova, you should probably bring Taste of Death, Feast for the Dead, and/or Putrid Flesh. This changes your role completely - into the role of the minion bomber, which is raising, destroying or leaving to die minions to serve as energy batteries and sources of malign effects and armor-ignoring AoE damage.

Targetting minions, keeping track of their health etcetera, is a really messy job. Human players do not have access to "next minion"-shortkeys. This is why this job is usually better left to a hero. It certainly isn't anything to recommend for a newbie.

When a combination of the energy boosts to the other N party members and the armor-ignoring nature of the damage from Death Nova does become a bigger attraction than the actual physical (part armor-ignoring in the case of OoU) damage of the minions, read, when in sufficiently high-level PvE, it is time to make the switch.

Also, with enough corpses in the area, Jagged Bones is not even needed for the Minion Bomber. It won't even produce one new minion every ten seconds, while a single cast of Bone Minions makes two.

The Riven · Jan 05, 2008, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Moloch, please realise that nomatter what you post there are people who have the sole intent of degrading each and every thread into either a flame war or a thread that contains pictures of cats.

If they submitted builds that people could compare with your already suggested "starter" minion master or even an alternative to the minion bomber builds i personaly think they would be worth replying to, as all they seemed inclined to do is ridicule with no alternative or better build suggestions maybe it would be more seemly if these post were simply ignored.

Moloch Vein · Jan 05, 2008, 10:51 PM // 22:51

I would like to note that it's getting very hard to edit the original post. When I try to do so either the entire text disappears in the edit box and/or there is no change when I press the Save Changes button. Thus I can't correct some build errors. (Most notably I managed to leave out Blood Renewal from a BiP build.)

Can this be fixed? Is this a bug happening with too long messages?

Fuzzy Taco · Jan 05, 2008, 11:00 PM // 23:00

the same thing happened to me with my 55 necro guide, sadly.

once the gurucode hits a certain breakpoint in the 1000's of characters in a post (i can't remember the exact number) the post becomes uneditable. Antithesis accidentally deleted the OP of his massive legendary survivor guide. all you can do is copy/paste, redo the coding, then add whatever you like.

Moloch Vein · Jan 05, 2008, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Fortunately I have the original message saved as a .txt-file.

If this is the case, however, it might be better if I make a new thread for the guide, to break up the message into several compartments.

I managed to edit the message in Firefox. It might be partly an IE glitch, but I do notice the message go blank when go into the edit window.

BladeDVD · Jan 06, 2008, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Is this guide meant for people playing solo mostly? I'm wondering at the lack of resurrection skills on the full bars.

I too raised my eyes at the Flesh Golem use, but given your goal, an understandable compromise.

Since this is a beginner's guide, was any thought given to single campaign bars? I see that complaint or question about that every once in awhile. Might be beyond the scope of what you are trying to do though.

Definitely should be a sticky.

Coloneh · Jan 06, 2008, 03:39 PM // 15:39

can we stick this at the last page of the necro section somehow? or at least put it somewhere where it wont confuse new players into attempting to use these builds. the OP obviously dosnt understand GW.

Stormlord Alex · Jan 06, 2008, 06:15 PM // 18:15

I smell another Flesh Golem debate...

Golem is a bad skill. Giving up your elite for a marginally stronger minion? lolol
It's simple fact that FG is lacking.

However...
In context of this guide, I'm inclined to agree with recommending the fleshie.
A bad player can only get himself killed with OoU/AotL, and lacks the competence to micro Tainted Flesh and Jagged Bones.

I dunno about you, but I'd rather give a retard an inflatable hammer than a chainsaw. He probably won't hurt himself with the hammer. And FG is that hammer.

Moloch Vein · Jan 06, 2008, 07:57 PM // 19:57

I'd like everyone reading this thread to request builds, roles and more that they would like to see included in the guide.

Fuzzy Taco · Jan 06, 2008, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

I dunno about you, but I'd rather give a retard an inflatable hammer than a chainsaw. He probably won't hurt himself with the hammer. And FG is that hammer.

best gw metaphor i have ever seen.

i agree with including the fleshy, and one thing kind of jumps out at me: if there were "more advanced" builds in the OP, people would ignore the fleshy builds and go straight for OoU.

Clarissa F · Jan 06, 2008, 09:38 PM // 21:38

A good thread, ruined by an a-hole who still can't get it through his head.

Minion master keeps minions alive.

Minion BOMBER kills his minions for damage and degen.

quit making up for your small unit by flaming relentlessly, and let a useful thread continue.

-waits for the ban-stick, probably for self-

Cherng Butter · Jan 06, 2008, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Using Jagged Bones doesn't limit yourself to minion bombing. You can definitely take advantage of the dying minions with Death Nova and Soul Reaping abuse (i.e. Sab's build), but I wouldn't consider it bombing because you're maintaining that meat shield. There may be other alternatives for a "pure" MM, but Jagged Bones definitely has great merits for prolonging your minions' lives and getting extra out of their deaths.

Moloch Vein · Jan 06, 2008, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Of course. No matter if you play a minion bomber or a minion master, the minions will exist. As such, they will attract attention. Of course, that is a good thing.

However if your interest lies in maintaining a reliable SHIELD of minions, Jagged Bones is sub-par. Aura of the Lich should be used. None of those should probably be used by a newbie.

Coloneh · Jan 06, 2008, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

However if your interest lies in maintaining a reliable SHIELD of minions, Jagged Bones is sub-par. Aura of the Lich should be used. None of those should probably be used by a newbie.

wait, wait, wait. what? someone needs to give you an inflatable hammer...

boogerboy72 · Jan 07, 2008, 12:01 AM // 00:01

I agree with the inflatable hammer comment. i used flesh golem once, never again. its exactly that, an inflatable hammer. you cant go wrong. Are there better elites, god yes.

Cathode_Reborn · Jan 07, 2008, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Instead of just sweeping other elites besides Golem under the carpet without even explaining their pros/cons/usage, the guide would be more effective if you posted maybe 2 builds for each elite with some details. The guide is lacking in details - newer necs are almost better off just grabbing builds off wiki. At least there, the person looking for a build has more options to choose from instead of basically being told: "oh you're a newb? Ok use this....other elites are too advanced for you

". Post multiple builds for each MM elite. Explain their usage. Explain the mechanics behind AotL, as the guide doesn't mention a single thing about how life-stealing and degen affects it.

I still disagree with Golem being "newb-friendly".....AotL users often use multiple enchantments with Mystic Regen to counter one weakness: degen. As for life stealing, I find it silly that people attempt to bring that up.....im sure most of us already know how rare it is in pve. The 2nd MM build is asking for AotL to be in there...I find it strange that Golem was used as the main elite. Another thing: an MM without AotL that uses BotM with 10 minions will sac a crapload of hp. That itself is a danger. People attempt to solve that by lowering their hp with runes - that too is dangerous, and becomes worse with DP. When using AotL you gain benefits, and new dangers. imo, trying to say Golem is the option for a newb is kinda lame. As for Undeath and Jagged bones, those are much different and im sure people know why.

If for some reason people are worried about AotL being too "complex" for a newer player to use, try this:

[skill]Aura of the Lich[/skill][skill]Blood Renewal[/skill][skill]Infuse Condition[/skill][skill]Contemplation of Purity[/skill].

Rest is optional. If somehow the player goes near death, using CoP with AotL will full restore your health and remove a hex. Of course if you can save a few skillslots if your healers are decent.

SV build - Enchantment removal, like P-bond, is usually useless half the time in pve. It should only be used on the few rare occasions that it actually does something....HM Grawls with Healing hands come to mind. Dark Fury + Mark of Fury is kinda overkill. Use only one. imo Life siphon is weak in pve. The healing/degen are both very minor. It shines more in pvp where things don't die in 10-15secs.

I think after cleaning up alittle and maybe adding some more detail on stuff, it could be stickied.

Moloch Vein · Jan 07, 2008, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Yes, Life Siphon is weak. The Blood line is weak for hexes with the notable exception of two elites, only one of which is truly useful for PvE.

Mark of Fury plus Dark Fury might be "overkill" but you truly can not get too much adrenaline if you're running that type of team and the inclusion of both a cover hex of same recharge as the elite and the party-wide enchantment does add some utility.

Yes, life stealing is somewhat rare in PvE, but it isn't rare enough.

As for enchantment removal being weak in PvE, half of the time it's useless, half of the time it's borderline essential. With the Blood line being so lacking in utility I did feel it was among the best options to put there - Gaze of Contempt might be better.

There is a lot of cleaning up to do that I can not do now because the post is too long to edit due to BB-code errors. Also there is already a lot of more material written that can not be included for the same reason, including in-depth discussion about different DM elites.

This thread is going to be closed and replaced within the day.